- This topic has 143 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated by Butlereer.
December 1, 2021 at 8:40 am #165255
The quote in quote blocks I posted is a direct copy and paste of something I said. That’s verifiable.
I quoted it because you said:
If he wasn’t trying to make a point, then what was the purpose?
You said that in response to my quote, where i clearly said he wasn’t trying to hang his hat, and then said “he was making the point that…”
And now you’ve doubled down.December 1, 2021 at 11:44 am #165274
I have no idea what you are trying to prove,but I give up. You win.
Maybe you should let Deuce speak for himself.December 1, 2021 at 3:35 pm #165303
catfish, a couple of things here
First, Vulash did a pretty solid job summarizing my point.
Second, you make my point for me. WVU’s running game has been midling to pitiful against the better teams this year. Do you honestly think that is on Doege too?
The fact remains. Run for a hundred, win.
Run for a hundred
Clearly at 6-6, there are 6 games this season where the team didn’t run for a hundred. Why, though, does that make the statistic any less relevant? Undefeated when the team runs for just 100 yards.
The student weight coach artfully pointed out that rushing yards includes Doege sacks. Again, what are the sack yards when WVU runs for 100 yards? Less. You know, because its about the trenches.
Break it down further. WVU has given up a horrid 33 sacks. 21 of those were in 3 games. OSU (8), Baylor (5) and K-State(3). Outside of those three games, which everyone agrees were abysmal all the way around, WVU averaged 1.11 sacks allowed per game. Obviously you can’t remove those games from the stats, but that 1.11 would put WVU 13th in the country in sacks allowed per game. BTW, Doege wasn’t sacked all 33 times.
So, a team that was built around its star running back, that fails to churn out a measly 100 yards, is the fault of the QB, evidently.
Do you think that’s because teams don’t respect the pass? I mean, Doege finished second in the league in passing yards.
Worst rushing offense in the league. 4th best passing offense in the league.
Blame the QB.
Doege has the most interceptions in the league. By 2. Three or four of those were unbelievably bad. Head scratching, kick the dog and break the TV bad. Difficult to even watch, in person or on TV. At least two of them were perfectly on target and served up to the defense by the receiver. Another one should also have been caught by the receiver.
He’s also thrown the most passes, by 20. In an offense that could never be confused as high flying. Wonder why that is.
He’s second in the league in passing yards and second in the league in TDs
Yet, the rushing offense, which is ranked #97 in the country, gets crickets for criticism around here while Doege gets skinned alive on a daily basis.
Its the offensive line people. It was the offensive line on Opening Day. Its the offensive line today.
You win or lose in the trenches. Sure we should have a better QB. But we don’t. And that isn’t Brown’s fault. Brown brought in Doege to fill a need. People fail to remember the disaster of a bowl game that Jack Allison had in 2018in Dana’s last game, that led to Jack not even being here to start 2019.
I remember some of these very same people dragging Kendall daily when he was the starter. And when Doege came in and things got better and we won with him, people were happy and optimistic.
Nobody is even talking about the lost offseason workouts during the COVID shutdown. Well, almost nobody. All that time lost cost this team development in timing between the QBs and the receivers.
And still, nobody’s talking about all the dropped passes game after game after game after game. Someone should go back through the past two seasons and add up the number of touchdown passes that weren’t even tough catches, that were flat dropped. Lets talk about the three interceptions this year that were a result of perfectly thrown or just catchable balls, that were coughed up into the hands of the defense.
How many passes that would have gained a first down were flat out dropped?
Nope, WVU is 6-6. Burn him at the stake.
I also find it truly offensive that Doege does such a poor job of tackling on kickoff returns. But maybe that’s just me.December 1, 2021 at 5:20 pm #165309
I am not blaming the whole season on Doege.I challenge you to point out where I did.I’ve stated several times that the O line is terrible and the offense in general is offensive. You combine that with an immobile QB with a bad clock in his head and it magnifies the problem.As well as stymies the running game.
I’m not D1 coach with a multi million dollar contract. I’m not privy to the inner workings as some of you seem to be. As a fan though some things are very obvious to me.And I as a fan I have a right to comment on them. I said from the beginning that this portal thing and some players getting paid has changed my attitude about college football.
In a nut shell.I want quality and success for the time and money I invest in Mountaineer athletics.Nothing else will be acceptable.If it doesn’t, I’ll just walk away from it.It’s that simple.
If the COVID BS taught me anything, it is that I don’t need sports to live.December 1, 2021 at 9:29 pm #165316
BGDeuce, let’s start where we agree for the purpose of continuing a meaningful discussion… I’m not even going to try to attack you back.
The offensive line IS a weakness and has been so all season. They will not win many one on one battles against a 4+ man front (5 on 3 yes we can manage to gain rushing yardage against the likes of Iowa St and Kansas). Like many have mentioned, this is a young team who is not physically mature/developed enough to consistently win at the line of scrimmage in a man or gap blocking scheme.
We have had trouble recruiting dominant biggest man on the planet types of offensive lineman at WVU in the past, yet still managed to make the best out of our recruiting situation with smaller more athletic lineman in a zone blocking scheme (especially under Rick Trickett… I love the disciplined lines he consistently produced here at WVU).
A mobile quarterback can definitely help his running back be more productive and help to mask the one on one size mismatches along the offensive line. Pat White, Geno Smith, Skyler Howard, Will Grier are all what I consider quarterbacks with adequate athleticism to pose a reasonable threat to the opposing defenses of faking a handoff to the running back and keeping it themselves for a 10+ yard gain. Having a quarterback in the backfield who defenses have to stop and think about for a split second to determine whether he or the running back truly has the ball, prevents the defenses from keying on one player (in this case Leddie Brown). Even when we recognize the defense was keying off Leddie Brown against Kansas, when they over-pursued the RB and Doege try to sneak it with the QB keep… he didn’t have the speed around the edge to make the defense pay and we all saw the defender close in quickly and put quite a hit on the QB.
Further, how many speed option runs have we seen this year? The speed option is a simple way to get athletes on the perimeter of the defense in space. The option threat by the quarterback — and the numbers advantage gained by reading a defender instead of blocking him — keeps the defense inside, but the point of the play is to pitch the ball to the running back on the perimeter where he can burst upfield to do maximum damage. That is another very simple way to freeze a defender with an athletic quarterback that ultimately benefits the running back. Pat White and Steve Slaton had a symbiotic relationship in the backfield behind smaller athletic offensive lines and wide receivers who blocked their tails off.
Again, we agree the offensive line was not going to win many one on one battles up front and man blocking was going to be an issue for us unless we were facing a 3 man front that seldom blitzed. What’s frustrating for me is, we have lost to BigXII teams in previous years with worse offensive lines and quarterbacks who are not nearly as good pure pocket passers as Doege… Kansas State, TCU, and Iowa State have beat us with serviceable athletes at quarterback who could throw the ball when necessary and just take what the defense gave them behind shaky offensive lines. Behind a young offensive line who cannot win one on ones… don’t overthink it; just do what most high school coaches do and let your best athlete take snaps and have him take what the defense is giving him. Don’t ask your pocket passer to be cerebral and make perfect passes under consistent pressure from defenses.
Defenses are scared to pass rush and over pursue the running back against the Pat Whites of the world…
Defenses are licking their chops when they see an opportunity smother the running back or if it’s a passing play… get the inevitable sack against the Ben Roethlisbergers of the world behind an physically overmatched offensive lines.
Also you’re right to point out receivers have dropped balls (cough Sam James)…
When the passing game has the dropsies and the offensive line can’t keep the QB clean, we should rely on baiting the defense and getting the ball to athletes in space in the most simple way possible (not a variety of triple* option plays which we may have seen the offense try to employ with Garrett Greene).
We have seen Garrett Greene rush for 60 yards in one attempt. Now would most people suggest that play was a fluke by the defense and that Greene does not truly possess the athleticism to get 5+ yard gains and move the sticks? I honestly believe the kid has the athleticism to take what the defenses give him and move the stick on a more consistent basis than does a Ben Rowthlisberger type behind an offensive line which seldom wins one on one match ups. It’s not sexy like the Air Raid passing game, but just keep it simple let your best athlete take the snap and take what the defense gives you. Where is the NASCAR offense which Neal Brown was known for at one time?
Would Leddie Brown have more rushing yards behind this offensive line taking hand-offs/pitches from Pat White? Absolutely. Ditto but Garrett Greene? I think a reasonable person would have to agree that a mobile quarterback who is a dual threat provides the offense a better chance of rushing for 100+ yards each game (or in the case of Pat White 300+ yards). Now was Pat White ever going to match Jarret Doege’s passing yardage? No, but he sure did win football games behind the same offensive line that made Adam Bednarik look really bad.December 1, 2021 at 10:47 pm #165320
I’ve felt that we had a better chance to win with Greene because of his mobility. I don’t argue that point. But, over the season I’ve also seen a few things.
First, opposing defenses have been able to lock him down running the ball. And he’s not enough of a threat to pass to overcome it. Heck, even Kansas did it just by putting a middle linebacker spy on him that just crashed Greene during the read option when the defensive front took the fake.
Its what everyone is doing to him now.
If Greene could make the throws that need to be made to lead this offense, he’d be in there. To say otherwise is crap.
And, another thing, this team is 4-2 in its last six. Improvements have been made since the Baylor game in every phase. The only unit that has regressed is the defense and that is wholly due to substantial injuries in every level.
And Doege has proven time and time again that when given time to throw, with just a minimal supporting running game, that he can win. Clearly you don’t think that 100 yards rushing as a team is a huge ask.
And nice that you bring up Pat White, Geno Smith, Will Grier. Lets compare Doege to three of the best to ever don the gold and blue. Doege isn’t any of them and never will be.
But you know what? There is no Geno Smith, Pat White, Will Grier, Marc Bulger, Rasheed Marshall, Jeff Hostettler, Oliver Luck, Kevin White on this team. If there was a better QB on this team, he’d be playing.
I’m not at all saying that Greene will never be the guy. If it was me, I’d have made the switch after the Baylor game. But its not me, and I’m not at practice every day.
And Brown stuck with who he thought gave us the best chance to win, and, we, did.
To say that WVU can’t recruit big time offensive linemen is just a complete lack of understanding of what this program was built upon, and not even bothering to look to see that there are WVU alums starting in the NFL right now on the offensive line.
There’s talent on this offensive line right now. But what’s not there are upper classmen. Guys who have been developed and have the SKE to get the job done. We’re starting a true freshman on the line for heaven’s sakes. He wasn’t ready. But he had to play anyway. He had to play anyway because the guy who started ahead of him wasn’t getting it done. And now that guy is in the portal.
And we’re so thin on the line right now that we’re playing the same five guys for the whole game. Nehlen used to, and I get that this was before your time, play two full squads of linemen here. There was no fanfare about it, but he’d have a whole second unit in there, and they’d move it and score. Never did he have a unit that didn’t have at least three guys who played regularly as backups.
Yeah, Trick was a great offensive line coach. But he’s been gone now for 14 years. His choice. There are excellent line coaches all over the country. And maybe we don’t have one of them. Maybe we do. Just don’t know.
What I do know is that when WVU runs for 100 yards under Coach Brown, WVU has not lost a game. Specifically, when Doege gets 100 yards of rushing support, he’s never lost a game as a Mountaineer.
So every other piece of analogy means nothing. A mediocre run game, not even a good one, gets us wins, every, single, time. A great rushing day gets us a game controlling win with scores in the 30s.
Sacked three times by Texas. Won the game.
Sacked twice and pick six vs Kansas. won the game.
Sacked three times vs Maryland and two picks. Lost the game
Sacked twice vs Texas Tech and lost the game
Know the difference?
100 yards rushing. Take away the sack yards, and WVU still didn’t run for 100 in the losses.
One Hundred Yards.
Doege is the best we have.
Rich couldn’t get it done with Brad Lewis. Rich lost to Temple. At home. Rich got the benefit of a recruit named Rasheed Marshall.
Dana couldn’t get it done with Paul Millard and Ford Childress. Its why Clint Trickett ended up as the QB here.
Hell, Dana couldn’t get it done in the Big 12 with Geno Smith, Tavon Austin, Stedman Bailey and JD Woods. 7-6 in 2012. Know why? No consistent run game and no defense.
Brown completely turned this defense around immediately. He had the benefit of some nice recruits up front, and some immediate impact transfers, but the defense was no longer a joke here.
He’d had to make due with late transfers at QB because of a complete lack of depth here. And behind a wholly inexperienced and mistake prone offensive line.
They make key mistakes at very key times.
Namely, two huge offensive line blunders in the 4th quarter at Oklahoma that prevented at least 3 points, if not a TD on the last offensive drive of the game for WVU that would have.
Tied at 13 and 2nd and 7 at the Oklahoma 28 with under 4 minutes to go. False start. 2nd and 12. Then a phantom snap for a 21 yard loss. 3rd and 33 from the WVU 46. Punt. Never got the ball back.
Texas Tech, 4th quarter, down 20-17. 1st down at the WVU 36 after 11 yard pass to Wright. Holding on Nestor. Doege completes 22 yard pass on 2nd and 12 for a first down.
2nd and 5 and the Tech 7. Brown stopped for a yard. Incomplete pass.
4th and 4 and we’re going for the win with 4:40 to go. False start Gmiter. Field goal, tie 20-20. WVU never got the ball back.
Hell, look at the Kansas game. On Wright’s second TD catch drive, we had two holdings and free runners at the QB, and we still scored a TD.
2nd and goal at the 4 and Leddie walks in. And the book says holding on TJ Banks, but there were actually two holding penalties on the play on WVU. And Doege hits Wright for 14 yards on 3rd and goal from the 14.
On the first play of the game where Doege and Brown flubbed the handoff, there were two Kansas defenders two yards in the backfield. Even with the ball it was a TFL.
We can’t even run play action, because the defensive line is in Doege’s grill before he can set to throw if we take that much time to pass.
Leddie is constantly dodging linebackers in the backfield when he takes the handoff. Its one reason I like seeing Tony in there. Tony is more elusive and still is tough to tackle. Not a knock on Leddie.
And still, run for 100, win every time. Its not a new concept.
Its just like when they used to say if WVU scored 30 under Rich it was a victory. They didn’t even need to pass for 100 to win or score 30. But this isn’t that team.
Run for a hundred, and Doege gets it done. Every time. Not 150, not 200, not the White era offense ground game. ONE HUNDRED YARDS.
Its a team sport. Doege is not Geno Smith. He’s not Pat White. He’s not Will. He’s not Skylar Howard even. He is what he is. A mostly accurate passer who makes good reads and good decisions when he has time. He’s a mess when he can’t even get to his first read. Some of that is on him. Some of that is on his protection.
The coaching staff has worked and formulated a game plan to protect him and run what works. And since that happened this team is 4-2, with Doege at QB. Even with a defense that has more orange eaters than suiter uppers.December 1, 2021 at 10:58 pm #165321
The OL has had problems. But, I can’t blame them. They are freshmen and sophomores, playing against juniors and seniors.
They will learn and get bigger and stronger. I find it amazing that they’ve done as well as they have.
In the last seventy years, I can’t remember any other Mountaineer line being as young and playing as well..December 2, 2021 at 5:54 am #165324
So, then the question is, is everybody all in on a 6th year senior next year?December 2, 2021 at 8:44 am #165334
It is my belief that if the Mountaineers are to be successful in the 2122 season, it’s necessary that Doege returns.
I believe that if either of the back ups were up to the task of starting and make the Mountaineers better this year, he would start.
Also, I don’t believe that Greene has shown that he can be the savior of the Mountaineers in the QB position, at least at this point in time.
It is also my belief that any coach who wanted two unproven players to be the face of the Mountaineer in 2122 must be out of his mind.
It’s quite possible that in 2123 with the incoming freshman and the two backing up Doege now, the QB situation may be good to great. But, 2123 is not what the Mountaineers can expect in the 2122 season.
In 2122, without Doege, or a QB from the portal, the Mountaineers will have two unproven QBs, one sophomore that hasn’t proven himself and a three stars red shirt freshman who may become very good. But, any coach who relies on an unproven red shirt freshman must know something about his potential then others.
I also believe that Doege would be a better choice for the Mountaineers than can be found in the portal.
But, even if one of the two backing up Doege now is a super great QB, but what if he’s injured in game one, what fate then awaits the Mountaineers? One unproven QB and a true freshman backing him up. The true freshman may become a Mountaineer savior. But, what coach would put the Mountaineer season in what he may become?December 2, 2021 at 9:34 am #165347
First, we don’t really know if Doege is coming back. That was said during the Texas game by ESPN. There is no published quote from Doege or Brown that says he’s coming back. Also not one that says he isn’t.
Second, I’m not all in on anything. I’m all in on trusting the coaching staff to put the beset player at each position on the field that gives us the best chance to win. Period.
If Doege comes back, and he’s that guy, then that’s who it is. If Greene or Crowder win the job between now and the Pitt game, then that’s who we support.
Does that mean they’re above criticism for continued mistakes? No.
Does that mean its OK to start lobbing baseless claims of bias or conflict of interest (not saying you ever did that catfish) at the coaching staff because the guy that is the best we have just isn’t what we need to take the next step? No
I firmly believe that the offensive line will be leaps and bounds better next year than this one. In fact, I expect to see a significant improvement between the Kansas game and the bowl game. And that’s because we saw that from the Baylor game to the TCU game with two weeks.
The improvement I saw in this team during the off-week showed me that this coaching staff can coach and get things across to the players.
They’ve largely limited penalties, cut down on the turnovers, improved the defense getting turnovers, and managed the offense to do more of what they can do and less of what they can’t or don’t have confidence to try.
And if Nico comes in and wins the job, which I don’t expect to happen, and honestly hope it doesn’t, then so be it. I want him to come in and get his feet under him, get into the strength program, learn the offense, learn how to be a college student, learn how to live away from home and learn to be a teammate before he gets the responsibility of winning football games placed on him.
And then if he’s ready, get him in the last four games to get his feet wet, or give him a chance to lead us if needed. That’s the benefit of the new four game redshirt rule.
Maybe Goose is the guy. We don’t know. We know nothing about him. But he’s going to do exactly what the coaches tell him he needs to do to be the guy next year during the offseason and come in ready to battle.
Maybe Greene is. We know a little. And Greene comes in during the offseason and works on the areas needed to become the guy, gets stronger in the weight room, works with the receivers on passing and timing, and comes into next season with the confidence of having game experience to go with it already.
But right now, I’m more interested in where we play in a bowl, what our game plan ends up being, who we get back from injury on defense, and how it goes for 60 minutes.December 2, 2021 at 1:47 pm #165372
My question was hypothetical.
Deuce we can express differing opinions without being so adversarial. As far as the Mountaineers are concerned I want what you want.To field the very best team possible.I’m a grown man with an intellect.I don’t appreciate being talked down to.
The last place trophy bowl means little to me. Last years bowl appears to have done little to improve this year. A lot of factors invovled, but nonetheless we made little progress.
I want a fresh start @ QB.I hope Doege does the right thing and rides off into the sunset.
Without fan support and opinions football and sports in general means little.December 2, 2021 at 2:29 pm #165382
I don’t mean anything I said to you to come off as adversarial catfish. I apologize if you took it that way.
I do tend to let my frustrations with certain posts leak into discussions with othersDecember 2, 2021 at 3:00 pm #165385
Doege to finish last year at Pitt!
😛December 2, 2021 at 3:02 pm #165386
And I thought “War and Peace” was long!
😡December 2, 2021 at 4:23 pm #165395
BGDeuce, at this point in the season I agree with you… if we had to make the call on who starts against Pitt and Virginia Tech right now – Doege is our best option; on the condition and expectation that the offensive line will be better (and able to prevent him from being pressured into poor throws and sacks) after every starting lineman has had one full season and a full summer strength & conditioning with Mike. Wyatt Milum should be significantly better, and I doubt we see many more bad snaps by Zach Frazier.
That being said, we owe it to the team to have a real competition at every position before declaring starters. When we deem someone “the teams most improved player” in the off-season… that should be a title that is granted based metrics which can be validated objectively; be it hang clean weight, 3 cone agility drill time, 40 yard dash/10 yard split time, long jump distance, vertical jump height, number of interceptions thrown in practice, number of false starts or formation penalties in practice. Coaches should be held to account in being to explain how a particular player has objectively improved his game – I think that is a fair expectation.
I expect Doege will start against Pitt and Virginia Tech, and hope the offensive line will be able to protect him next season. If we see the same thing continue to happen next season (that we saw at the beginning of this season) and say we start 1-2… at that juncture I think it would be fair for fans to demand that one of the 3 presumed backup QBs get more than a couple possessions each game. Give a more mobile QB an entire quarter or half, let him make mistakes and see if he is able to learn from them and make corrective action. It’s been said before… you can’t teach speed – you either have it or you don’t.
After Garrett Greene had an “upper body injury” I haven’t been harping for him to get more playing time once it became a moot point. Doege has been effective against Iowa St who dropped 8 into coverage almost the whole game, the dumpster-fire team from Austin, and the perennial bottom dweller of the BigXII who sits at 2-10. I’m glad he won those games at the end of the season and hope the positive trend continues, but I am tempering my expectations and taking a wait and see approach.December 2, 2021 at 6:28 pm #165411
You’re right, were really not too far away from the same point.
But you know damned good and well that the coaches have metrics, tangible and intangible, to grade their players.
And you’re on meth if you believe that any coach worth his salt is ever going to publish their positional analysis in determining who plays and who doesn’t so a bunch of armchair wannabes can pick those apart.
Having worked in the program, you should understand that better than anyone.
If you’d said something like that to Rich when you were there he’d have invited you to leave his office with language colorful enough to decorate Evansdale for ChristmasDecember 2, 2021 at 6:46 pm #165412
Catfish, our beliefs are exactly opposite. You want Doege to be gone, no matter what.
And, I want the Mountaineers to field the best team they can, no matter who the QB is.
I want Doege to return. But. IMO players win or lose the starting status due to the ability they display. No coach will start a player over one who gives him the better option to win games.
IMO, at this point in time, Doege is the Mountaineers best option to win games. I believe that if he returns he will also be the best option to win games in the 2122 season.
In the 2123 season, with the two QBs on the team and with Nicco being a red shirt freshman, I think the Mountaineers will be better prepared to have a QB that can win games in 2123 then they would be in 2122.
So, if Doege is beaten out by one of the others in 2122, so be it. But, if he’s the best choice to lead the Mountaineers, then let him lead without all the criticism leveled at him.
Too many fans, without a clue, wants the Mountaineers to jettison any player that don’t perform to the ability they believe is necessary.
I want players to remain at the school until their eligibility is used up.
Unless a player is a cancer to the team, I prefer players remain for as long as they’re able. All upper level class members have a purpose on the team. Some who don’t make the two deep finds a home on special teams. And, if not that, preparing the team for upcoming games.December 2, 2021 at 7:25 pm #165413
TAKE YOUR PICK:
Cause and effect : the relationship between two things when one thing makes something else happen.
Co-incidence: a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection.
AND SHOVEL!December 2, 2021 at 7:41 pm #165414
The difference between Rich and Neal Brown for me is… both Rich and I are native West Virginians who were WVU football fans before we attended WVU. Our upbringing was steeped in West Virginia tradition and that is our true home where we belong. Rich, you and I were all bonafide mountaineers long before Neal Brown ever set foot in Morgantown. You are kidding yourself if you think WVU is Neal Brown’s forever dream job. “My old Kentucky home” resounds much more deeply down in Neal Brown’s soul than “Take me home, country roads” which is a more superficial reflection of where he is right now. That’s no knock on Neal Brown either, I don’t doubt his loyalty to his team right now; ethnocentrism and your true home roots do matter though. I will be a WVU fan and mountaineer for life. Neal Brown will be a University of Kentucky fan and wildcat for life. That’s who we are and where we come from. If Rich and Holgorsen have taught me anything…it’s that coach loyalty to a program is rarely lifelong.
I got my fare share of tongue-lashings at WVU too, but never from RichRod… got my tough love from Mike Barwis–that’s who I was scared of and whom I still respect! Warms my heart remembering him yell at me to tuck in my tampon! 😂
I just don’t know Neal Brown… he seems like a good person (much better man than his predecessor); I can respect his position and still question his decision making and rationale at times, without the homers trying to insult my character calling people meth-heads and trying to admonish them online for pragmatic assessment of performance. Drop the name calling and attempt at fanshaming and pulling mountaineer cards… Rest assured behind closed doors there would be a change of tone from how you’re typing right now.December 2, 2021 at 7:42 pm #165415
2122… dang Covid-19 really has made time fly by 😳
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